'A person or thing regarded as a representative symbol of something: e.g. "an icon of manhood".'
That's one of the only answers you'll get today. Wikipedia says 'Some writers say that the terms "icon" and "iconic" have been overused. A writer in Liverpool Daily Post calls "iconic" "a word that makes my flesh creep", a word "pressed into service to describe almost anything."'
I can understand their point. Somewhere in the back of my mind I remember knowing that an icon is a representative symbol of something. But when I use the word iconic, I think I'm actually thinking more along the lines of 'unforgettable'. I think somebody once told me that icons could always be recognised by their silhouette. So in Hitchcock's final film, Family Plot, we recognise his cameo appearance just from his silhouette for example.
But then I type 'movie icons' into Google images and I get this:
I guess these little pictures are just icons because they are representative of the actual characters that they stand for. Is that right? And could somebody enlighten me as to who the last one is please? I was expecting actual pictures of Monroe, Bogart, Chaplin but not these little ladies and gentleman.
In fact I scroll down and the first actual pictures of people I get are quite a way down:
Which gets me thinking? Is there room for debate about who our movie icons are? Or do some higher powers have to bestow the term 'icon' before us common muck can use it? Why are the above characters iconic? How long does it take to become iconic? Is it instant? Was Ledger and Nolan's Joker instantly iconic? Was the Joker already iconic before The Dark Knight and therefore any fresh incarnation of the villain will always be iconic?
What is Frankenstein a representative symbol of? The undead? The arrogance of man messing with the powers of God?
What about stars? I can clearly see how characters can be iconic. Many characters are written to be symbols. But stars? How can they be iconic? I mean really iconic?
MSN thinks they can be:
In the 00's we have: Will Smith, Nicole Kidman, Natalie Portman, Will Ferrell, Sean Penn, Johnny Depp, Keira Knightley, Clooney, Winslet and Jolie.
In the 90's we have: Pitt, Hanks, Willis, Thurman, Julia Roberts, Susan Sarandon, Jim Carrey, Winona Ryder, Meg Ryan
In the 80's we have: Eddie Murphy, Bill Murray, Schwarzenegger, Meryl Streep, Tom Cruise, Harrison Ford, Molly Ringwald, Kathleen Turner
The list goes on and on, check here for the 70s, the 60s, the 50s, and apparently MSN then decides there were no icons before this last decade. So no Chaplin, Buster Keaton, Laurel and Hardy etc.
I'm just not sure if all of these stars are really iconic. I mean what is Brad Pitt a representative symbol of? Now Tyler Durden maybe... but not Brad Pitt himself surely? And what about Johnny Depp? Edward Scissorhands I can see being iconic, Captain Jack even maybe at a stretch... but not just Johnny Depp.
So another question for you and I hope you are making a note of all these because I NEED answers! What makes a star iconic?
Finally, I'm more interested in iconic images than I am with iconic stars or even iconic characters. So what do you think are the most iconic images of cinema? For me it just doesn't come any more iconic than this. I could talk about this image all day but I'll leave that for another post.
Over to you! Please give me some answers to my endless questions and I will be forever in your debt!
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The last one is Harpo Marx.
ReplyDeleteThanks! Should have guessed that considering the one next to him!
DeleteGood discussion, it really depends on what criteria you apply. Iconic for acting ability, glamor/beauty/sex appeal/directing/musical/performing talent etc. Iconic for particular scenes/movies/characters/images etc.
ReplyDeleteActing icons-Tracy/Taylor/Davis/Hepburn-Katy for example
Beauty/glamor-Monroe/Turner/Gardner/Taylor again for example
Images-Hollywood sign/Oscar/
Movies-GWTW/Godfather for example the topic is of course highly subjective & rightly so!
Oh good I'm glad it's highly subjective. I was getting myself in a bit of a pickle trying to figure out what is definitively iconic!
DeleteWonderful post. I don't think that the meaning of 'movie icon' has to do much with the performances, actually. The icons are Monroe, Hepburn, Bardot...it's mostly about how people responded to them, how many people were inspired by them. You can ask people who are 15 years old who they were and they know what they look like in detail, but probably can't name their movies. It's about their impact on the culture. Nowadays, I hope that you are wrong about Ferrel and Knightley because if those two are movie icons, are we in trouble :) I'd say the only icons we have now are probably Julia Roberts for her "girl next door ting", maybe Meg Ryan for the same thing. Also Pitt, DiCaprio, Depp...
ReplyDeleteAbout the Joker. The groundwork was pretty much there - it's such a famous character. Ledger's darker version only fascinated enough people for the character to become famous again.
Yes definitely Monroe. I can see that she is iconic. she kind of became a character in her public life. Don't know so much about Hepburn and Bardot I'm afraid.
DeleteThat's interesting that you say it's about their impact on the culture. I like that idea. Then I can see why people think stars rather than just characters are iconic.
It was just MSN saying Knightley and Ferrell, not me! Don't worry I haven't gone mental. Though I would argue Ron Burgundy is iconic!
Yeah the Joker was already iconic but is Ledger's version now a new icon or is he still the same icon as any previous incarnations? I'm getting myself in a muddle here!
I love those little 'icons' you found. Maybe I'll use them somewhere myself. There's a fine argument for which characters in film are iconic or not. Is Lawrence of Arabia an iconic character? As an acting performance he certainly is, but as a character there are many better known than he is.
ReplyDeleteI think Lawrence of Arabia the character and the performance are intertwined so I guess if one is iconic then the other is too. But I think it is the character that is iconic really.
DeleteI think that the characters are the icons rather than the actors themselves. Don't actors by their very nature change for every role and therfore cannot be truly iconic? Actors who don't change and develop and are in the same role could be considered to be iconic but this seems like it should be a positive word so shouldn't really describe this kind of actor. MMM tricky I think this is a very misused word!
ReplyDeleteIndeed Beth. I think you're right. So Bruce Willis, Schwarzenegger are kind of iconic stars because they become associated with specific roles. The audience has a short hand when watching them. Also Willis' persona is linked with his characters. As in he offers bounties for Bin Laden's head etc. If anyone reads this, Beth is my fiancee and also the hamster girl from Eraserhead and therefore an icon herself.
DeleteI feel a bit strange labelling an actor as "iconic" or being an "icon". I know some people feel Audrey Hepburn is an icon. Or is it just that one image from Breakfast at Tiffany's that people see and just associate the word iconic to that? Definitely share your sentiments there. People who I think are true icons are people who have made an impact on the world, not actors. Maybe I'm being too judgemental!
ReplyDeleteIconic film images is something I can get behind. The moment in The Shawshank Redemption of Andy in the rain will always be one of my most iconic moments. Indiana Jones getting chased by a giant boulder. Maybe even Indiana Jones' hat! That's a pretty iconic image. The Titanic half in and out of the water - but perhaps that's got a lot to do with history as well as THE film. Can only think of those off the top of my head.
Good I'm not the only one that feels weird about calling stars icons. I think you might be right about the Hepburn thing. As for real icons... yes I guess Ghandi and Jesus deserve a mention LOL!
DeleteYes Shawshank! Yes Titanic! I'm thinking hard about Indiana Jones. Instinctively I want to say yes. But then I think maybe not. Does the image of him running from the boulder actually become a representative symbol of anything? I think that Indy himself is iconic but maybe not the running from a boulder. But I don't know. Gosh I'm confused!
Great post. I guess I don't think of celebrities as icons for movies. If I think of Indiana Jones, however, I maybe think of him as an icon because he represents the adventure genre. But I guess that fits into your question about finding something iconic because it's personal to you.
ReplyDeleteOk yeah I see that. So characters can be icons of a genre. I guess perhaps then some stars can also be icons of a genre? Yes it definitely does seem to be pretty subjective!
DeleteI don't really have any answers (sorry about that), but this really is a great post!!
ReplyDeletehaha thanks Asrap!
Delete"Can I say that any film character is an icon if I feel s/he is a representative symbol of something to me personally?" Yes.
ReplyDelete"Do I have to justify my use of the word iconic to anybody?" No.
That's my feeling on the matter. Words such as iconic DO get overused on the internet but it's starting to feel to me like we've reached the point now where we are over-reacting to people's over-reactions. If something is iconic from your own cinematic perspective, then it is.
As far as what is "officially" iconic? Chaplin's Tramp. Bogart. Marilyn Monroe. Darth Vader, maybe. That list wouldn't be very long.
Great post.
So there is 'officially' iconic? I'm still confused!
DeleteNo, by definition, something that is 'iconic' is so because a majority of people feel the same way about it. I may think 'Bring it On: All or Nothing' is the best movie ever but if I'm the only one to think so, how can it be iconic?
ReplyDeleteI think time is the best judge of what makes something iconic. As Nick explains, the word is way overused now and maybe used to describe people or things that ephemerally popular right now but won't be years from now.
Ok so it's a democratic decision as to what becomes iconic. Yeah I think time will certainly tell what becomes iconic. That makes me very curious at to who will become our modern icons!
DeleteExcellent idea for a post! Unforgettable iconic images of cinema? I think it has a lot to do with posing, facial expressions, clothes. When you think of M Monroe, its her white dress blowing up. Michael Jackson many will think of image of him in a hat, with hand behind head and arm pointing out.
ReplyDeleteSome of my faves are obvious choices I suppose: Jack N flashing his teeth on the poster of The Shining.The bike crossing the moon in ET. Or James Bond in gunbarrel sequence , posing, and pointing his gun at the audience while blood runs down the screen. To pick a more recent one, Jack and Rose at the bow of Titanic.
I think I'd rather be famous for being a versatile actor, than a memorable icon, because the former requires more skill. However they often overlap, if you believe in the awards.
Yes MM and MJ seem iconic. It's easy to recall the images you refer to. But I wonder what they became representative symbols of.
DeleteSame with all the other images you mention there. Definitely memorable and iconic.
I think you're right; are icons often versatile actors?
@Pete: MJ has inspired a generation with dance moves, the Marilyn Monroe moment with the white dress I'd think represents a sex symbol, and perhaps women expressing themselves more openly.
ReplyDeleteA lot of stuff has been written on what icons represent, as I'm sure you are aware of.
Not many would say Stallone has range as an actor(ok maybe Cop Land (1997), but Streep or De Niro are both icons and versatile.
Yeah I think you're right! I should read into it though as I'm very curious about all this. Streep and De Niro are interesting choices but why them and not just some of their characters?
Delete@Pete: Beng widely hailed as the best actor or best actress of your generation is what makes DeNiro and Streep iconic for me. Though as you point out, you can make a case for several of their characters being iconic too!
DeleteAaah ok so it's about being the best of a generation too! Interesting!
DeleteInteresting post, Pete! Hmmm, to me, 'iconic' is perhaps more associated more with the role an actor play than the actor him/herself. Though of course like Nick said, there may be a few classic actor who people coined as being 'iconic' as you know what to expect when you see them on screen. Now I do think a 'great' actor perhaps would rather be known for being versatile though, which means you can't always expect a similar look/performance every time, so the term 'iconic' isn't necessarily a good thing.
ReplyDeleteAs far as a role go, I do think some actors deliver an 'iconic' performance and using your 'unforgettable' measure, I'd say people like Charlton Heston gave an iconic performance in 'Ben-Hur' and 'The Ten Commandments', Marlon Brando in 'The Godfather,' and more recently Heath Ledger in 'The Joker,' just to name a few. It's my two cents anyway :D
Thanks Ruth, I agree. There does seem to be iconic performances but I think it's usually more to do with the role. And it is interesting to note that stars that are considered iconic are often not likely to be the 'best' actors.
DeleteGreat job matey. Interesting and thoughtful. FRC did a big series of ICONS this time last year, infact we did a world tour visiting many countries looking at icons form different parts of the world. It was interesting to learn some very cool stuff.
ReplyDeleteNice one matey
Thanks Scott I'll have to have a look at that!
DeleteI agree with Sati. The title 'movie icon' must be use to actor and actress that many people feel inspired or they have a big influence in the movie industry. This is a nice topic, by the way.
ReplyDeleteThanks Andina. Yeah I think they have to be culturally significant to be an icon. Still it's a strange thing to measure if somebody is culturally significant.
Delete